Singular viewpoints
I'm a little disappointed to be missing the Orchestra's Carnegie concert, but schedule intervenes, and after this week I won't be back to the Twin Cities until well into June. In the interim I get to spend a couple of very-much-needed weeks at home with my husband and dogs, as well as guest-conducting with a handful of symphonies - Eastern Connecticut, Atlanta, National.
This reminds me of a very interesting conversation a few weeks back with our principal percussionist, Brian Mount. After rehearsal one day he popped into my dressing room, sat down, and said, "I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but you, like every other conductor who's on our podium, conduct ahead of the orchestra. What's up with that? Is it just us, or is every orchestra like this? I can't tell, because at this point this is the only orchestra I know."
I hadn't really thought of it this way before. Not the beating ahead part - all orchestras play on varying degrees of delay, and it's something you get used to, to a certain extent. Usually it's a matter of finding just the point where you keep momentum up without being so far ahead that it starts muddying up the beat or the musical intent. But how would the average orchestra musician know if this was normal or not? After all, if you're in a full-time professional orchestra, it's unlikely that you spend any amount of time working with other orchestras, so your understanding of orchestral playing becomes totally dependent on your job.
My answer to Brian was, no, it's not necessarily just any orchestra, although our Orchestra has a very strong tendency to take time at the end of a phrase and start the next phrase at a slightly slower tempo - the effect is a long and steady slowdown over the course of a piece - and to counteract that, I'll push ahead when needed. There were a couple of groups that I've conducted recently - LA Phil in particular pops to mind - where the orchestra tended to be more on top of the beat. Every group is different. But then, how would you know unless you've experienced the variety?
There's an upside and downside to this. The upside is the individual character ensembles can develop over and extended time of playing together (like the plummy MO string sound - which, incidentally, is also a contributing factor to the whole slowing-down thing...). The downside is that just as much as good habits can be reinforced, bad habits can be institutionally ingrained.
A conductor with an active guesting career has built-in checks and balances; it certainly keeps me honest. One might get a little lazy working with the same group for an extended period - musicians can figure out a conductor's strange habits or lapses in technique and learn to work around them. But take that sloppy technique to a new orchestra and you'll probably find yourself in some trouble.
Academia quite wisely prevents burnout and encourages the furthering of knowledge through sabbaticals; wouldn't a similar situation, in an ideal world, benefit orchestra musicians? How about a mandated musician swap every 5 years? It would certainly be a learning experience for everyone, and keep viewpoints from becoming too singular...
This reminds me of a very interesting conversation a few weeks back with our principal percussionist, Brian Mount. After rehearsal one day he popped into my dressing room, sat down, and said, "I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but you, like every other conductor who's on our podium, conduct ahead of the orchestra. What's up with that? Is it just us, or is every orchestra like this? I can't tell, because at this point this is the only orchestra I know."
I hadn't really thought of it this way before. Not the beating ahead part - all orchestras play on varying degrees of delay, and it's something you get used to, to a certain extent. Usually it's a matter of finding just the point where you keep momentum up without being so far ahead that it starts muddying up the beat or the musical intent. But how would the average orchestra musician know if this was normal or not? After all, if you're in a full-time professional orchestra, it's unlikely that you spend any amount of time working with other orchestras, so your understanding of orchestral playing becomes totally dependent on your job.
My answer to Brian was, no, it's not necessarily just any orchestra, although our Orchestra has a very strong tendency to take time at the end of a phrase and start the next phrase at a slightly slower tempo - the effect is a long and steady slowdown over the course of a piece - and to counteract that, I'll push ahead when needed. There were a couple of groups that I've conducted recently - LA Phil in particular pops to mind - where the orchestra tended to be more on top of the beat. Every group is different. But then, how would you know unless you've experienced the variety?
There's an upside and downside to this. The upside is the individual character ensembles can develop over and extended time of playing together (like the plummy MO string sound - which, incidentally, is also a contributing factor to the whole slowing-down thing...). The downside is that just as much as good habits can be reinforced, bad habits can be institutionally ingrained.
A conductor with an active guesting career has built-in checks and balances; it certainly keeps me honest. One might get a little lazy working with the same group for an extended period - musicians can figure out a conductor's strange habits or lapses in technique and learn to work around them. But take that sloppy technique to a new orchestra and you'll probably find yourself in some trouble.
Academia quite wisely prevents burnout and encourages the furthering of knowledge through sabbaticals; wouldn't a similar situation, in an ideal world, benefit orchestra musicians? How about a mandated musician swap every 5 years? It would certainly be a learning experience for everyone, and keep viewpoints from becoming too singular...
Labels: conductors and conducting, inside the orchestra, philosophical musings
posted by Sarah at
10:25 PM
6 Comments:
Speaking of conducting (I apologize in advance if this is not the forum)... I couldn't help but notice the asst conductor position is open for the 09/10 season...?
Yes, it is. And it's not something we can comment on right now, except to say that Sarah will definitely still be our conductor for Inside the Classics in 2009-10. Stand by...
I'm confused! As I read this post, I remembered sitting in OH last week and being stunned by the precision of ensemble playing that this orchestra has now. The way, with a look or the flick of a finger from the conductor, musicians play and respond. And that everyone was on the beat, yes, even the conductor!
So, what is this business about "a very strong tendency to take time at the end of a phrase" and the "plummy MO string sound" contributing to slowing down the music. Aren't these things that the conductor would address in rehearsal? Isn't it too late to try to address in concert? Plus, I didn't hear any indication of the orchestra taking time at the end of phrases unintentionally last week.
I'd agree that every orchestra has its own personality, just as every conductor has his/her own quirks in how they approach conducting and the conducting gestures. I learned during my research (from one conductor after another) that on the podium it's the conductor's job to keep everyone together on the same beat and to THINK ahead (not beat ahead) in order to prepare to cue, tempo changes, etc. The conductor is supposed to lead the musicians in the music but he's performing with them. So, I guess I don't understand what Sarah or Brian Mount mean by "conduct ahead of the orchestra." If a conductor is beating ahead, how can the ensemble be together? How can the conductor then be able to respond to what's going on behind him in the music? Not to mention the confusion of stick technique for phrasing.
As for the idea of sabbaticals for orchestra musicians to experience playing in other orchestras, don't orchestra musicians perform in other ensembles anyway? Like chamber orchestras or ensembles, or regional symphonies. Or maybe there are those who don't. It's just that I think professional orchestras see a lot of conductors come through and they learn from each one (sometimes good, sometimes not) and by maintaining a consistent membership of the group, they also learn to trust each other and play better together.
So, what's the deal? (smile) Cinda
Well, no, everyone is not technically "on the beat"; they play a split second behind the beat. In fact, if you watch quite closely, sound is produced after the ictus, often on the upward part of a gesture. This is not to say that you can't have ensemble precision - part of the trick is that orchestras develop the ensemble instinct to respond to a gesture with the same amount of delay, a collective delay, that is briefer or longer depending on the group itself.
And, yes, conductors address these kinds of issues on the podium (if the ensemble has a tendency to lag, I have often witnessed the request to play more with the beat), but it depends on how ingrained certain habits are. A noticeable "habit" of the MO is a bit of Osmo-sis; he asks for uniformly sharp, loud sforzandos, regardless of surrounding dynamic. When a guest conductor asks for a different kind of sforzando, the orchestra takes some time to adjust, and, in fact, will still often produce a sforzando sharper than the conductor may be looking for, because this is something that they've been trained to do for many seasons now.
It's really not as simple as asking an orchestra to do something they're not used to; part of the greatness of an ensemble comes from the fact that they adhere to certain elements of style, sound and rhythm that are unique to them. The Minnesota Orchestra, playing the same repertoire with the same conductor, will sound different from the LA Phil (I can personally vouch for this...), and each ensemble has its own particular strengths and issues.
It's also not as simple to say that a conductor simply has to think ahead - laws of physics and reasonable physiological response dictate that a reaction to a gesture will always be at least an instant after the gesture. I would venture to say that most orchestras play with a noticeable delay (studio orchestras that work with click-tracks are a notable exception). It's subtle, probably nearly unnoticeable to the audience, but always there.
Finally, I think my point was more that most players in major orchestras don't regularly perform with any other major orchestras. Many orchestral players certainly are active chamber musicians, and might occasionally pursue other projects. However, it's extremely unlikely that they spend much (if any) time performing with other orchestras of similar size and rank, which is where you can really hear the differences.
Hope that answers your questions!
Thanks for responding, Sarah. I know about the split second delay. Musicians are human and can respond physically in a split second, not directly on the beat which signals them to play. Isn't that really the answer to Brian Mount's question about conductors conducting ahead in your post? In fact, the first paragraph of your response to me is an excellent answer for Brian. My point in saying the orchestra and conductor were "on the beat" was that they were all together, as close as they could be, so that the natural delay wasn't discernible at all.
My reference to thinking ahead was about the mental process, not the physical action of conducting. And I was referring to knowing the score well enough to think ahead (or look down at any notes the conductor has made for himself, remembering when to do that) to remember cues to musicians for entrances, tempo or dynamic changes, etc. If the preparation for the musicians isn't done a bar or two early, they might miss the cue....as I've experienced it.
When you say "on the podium," are you referring to rehearsal or concert? It's not clear. I was asking about rehearsal work and a conductor addressing things the orchestra was doing, like slowing down at the end of phrases. I'd expect professional orchestra musicians (like in the MO) to do their best to play what a conductor asks them to play, even if they don't agree, and despite any bad habits they may or may not have acquired. I'd like to also say that none of the "habits" you've mentioned the MO has acquired from working with Osmo Vanska have been readily discernible when guest conductors are here (that I've seen).
I guess I missed any connection between Brian Mount's inquiry and your point about orchestra players performing with other major orchestras. The differences among major orchestras regarding style, sound, quirks, etc. would perhaps be of more interest among conductors than among orchestra musicians, and also better observed on the podium (I'm thinking here of Sam's posts about what he can and cannot hear playing within the orchestra).
I have to say, Sarah, I'm extremely proud of my hometown band, the Minnesota Orchestra. You weren't here before Osmo Vanska started working with the Orchestra so you have no reference points for before and after. This band is one of the best in the world now, nipping at the heels of the NY Phil, Boston, Philadelphia, the Vienna Phil and Berlin. That's because of Osmo. Any habits the orchestra may have acquired because of him can't be all that bad..... (Smile)
Nice "talking" to you! Cinda
Actually, thanks to the genesis of readily-available digital recordings, I've been listening to the Minnesota Orchestra for decades - way back from its days as the Minneapolis Symphony - so I have years of reference points and am impressed with what Osmo has brought to the ensemble (of which we are all proud, of course!).
Common perception holds that a professional orchestra of high quality is much like a fine instrument - able to do anything, responding perfectly to the musician whose hands it's in. While reasonably accurate, this analogy does not allow for the fact that the orchestra is a collection of individuals, and that no matter how fine these musicians are, they are also human. One can address an orchestra multiple times over the course of a week's rehearsal about a certain point, but if it is antithetical to the ensemble's particular tradition or tendencies, it's going to be a tough sell, and some tendencies are difficult to overcome (and some cannot be changed in just a week's rehearsal, if ever - I think it would verge on impossible, for instance, to get the Vienna Philharmonic to play a waltz rhythm straight, without the trademark Viennese lilt!).
As for the differences amongst orchestras, many musicians who've had the opportunity to play with comparable ensembles will tell you that it's one of the most eye-opening experiences they've ever had. It gives you a basis of comparison for your own ensemble, a perspective that you cannot attain from simply being in your "home band". Most musicians will tell you that they become so accustomed to doing things a certain way (with their music director, with their colleagues) that being in another orchestra gives them a fresh view on the positive qualities of their home band as well as providing insights on how to improve the issues.
All orchestras have habits - give me a list of the dozen-and-a-half orchestra I've conducted this season, and I can tell you the proclivities of each ensemble; which section rushes, who comes in a split second late, which brass section tends to drag, which strings tend to accent downbeats, which orchestra tends to stretch its triplets, which ensemble has great dynamics, which has great short articulations but seems uncomfortable with a true legato, etc etc. It's collective, the ensembles know it, and it's part of what gives each group its particular personality. Conductors can come in and, if over an extended period of time (I'm talking years), institute institutional change (which is what we're seeing Osmo do in Minnesota). But an orchestra is not simply a well-oiled machine to be manipulated by a conductor's will - it's a collection of highly-skilled individuals in a very complicated group dynamic with distinct personalities on a personal and ensemble level, which is all part of which makes it such a fascinating job for conductor and player alike.
Post a Comment
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
<< Home